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4/6/08

 E-Bay Diamond


A long time ago and a short time ago. In a place both near and far away a professor purchased a synthetic, grown, cultured Russian Diamond from a person in Hong Kong for $125 on E-Bay. The diamond was represented as a real grown Russian diamond. For those who are not yet aware real diamonds can be grown using different processes. These are diamonds by every standard accept they are not taken from the ground. It is almost impossible to tell the difference.

I got the diamond in the mail and took it to a jeweler to assess. He said it was not real and worth very little. I am now going to contact the seller and try to get my money back. My guess is he will accuse me of switching and not want to take it back.

I will let you know how it goes. Here it goes.
Contact E-Bay Dispute

Hello Dispute Person:

Russian Lab Diamond
50671000079

January 15, 2006
Please add this e-mail to the above case

Transaction Date: Dec 29, 2005
Transaction Amount: -$130.00 USD
Your Transaction ID: 6NP467049W666871N
Seller's Transaction ID: 0C0313269V736380E
Case Number: PP-134-488-985
Seller's Name: Ka Chun Tse
Seller's Email: econtse@yahoo.com

Definition of Natural Diamond: Natural diamonds are those that are mined.

Synthetic Diamond Produced: Synthetic: Lab Created (grown) diamonds can be manufactured with two processes.
1. HPHT (High Pressure High Temperature)
2. CVD (Chemical Vapor Distribution)
Using C source (Crystals) or Seed crystals and FE crystals

This message was sent while the listing was active to ask if a real lab diamond..

econtse is the seller.

Yes. They are lab grown. But how you define the term real? They are not natural diamond but they have the same hardness, sharpness, clarity and composition as natural diamond.
Respond to this question in My Messages.
Item Details
Item name: Russian Lab Diamond 7mm ?? x 1 ???????!!
Item number: 50671000079
End date: Dec-27-05 06:25:09 PST


When asked to return the diamond to the seller after my jeweler assessed that this is not a lab diamond.

Morris to Tse

January 12 2006

Hello Ka Chun Tse

I showed the above diamond to a jeweler who I know well. He tested it and said that it is not real.

Meaning that it does not have the same attributes of a real diamond that a lab diamond would have.

When we discussed this stone you said that it was grown in a lab.

Perhaps you sent the wrong stone by mistake?

Let me know the address to return this stone to?

Please reimburse my paypal account $130.00 or send the represented stone.

David Morris

Tse to Morris

Louis Tse - CUNY to me
More options Jan 13 (2 days ago)

Dear Sir,

To be fair to each other, please present us your jeweler's testing
certificate or proof on the stone I sold to you.
Since, I am dealer only. Once you have the certificate, I can report the case to relevant diamond market association. And file a complaint to customer council.

According to international standard, certificate should include
chemical composition of your jeweler testing on the diamond.

If that's the case, We are ready for the refund. But please provide us the basic evidence first.

Morris to Tse

David Morris to louis.t, econtse
More options Jan 13 (2 days ago)

Jan 13, 2006
Order 50671000079
Diamond 7mm Russian Lab

Hello Ka Chun Tse:

Why not take the stone back and check it for yourself when you get it back? If this is a pattern from your supplier you would want to verify this for yourself rather than have E-Bay transactions like this ruin your reputation.

I would hope that this is not a strategy to avoid the actual diamond assessment because of the cost to the customer of such a test. I think this is your issue as a business person.

I will check with Ebay on the procedures for returns for not receiving what was expected.

Just send me the correct stone.

Do you check the stones before you send them out? Do you ever see the diamonds.

I think the return address on the package was from the USA.

What diamond marketing association are you referring to Hong Kong, USA or some where else?

David Morris, Ph.D.
Professor of Marketing

Tse to Morris

Please check my reply in blue colour. Thanks!

David Morris < wrote:
Jan 13, 2006
Order 50671000079
Diamond 7mm Russian Lab

Hello Ka Chun Tse:

Why not take the stone back and check it for yourself when you get it back?

If this is a pattern from your supplier you would want to verify this
for yourself rather than have E-Bay transactions like this ruin your
reputation.

Professor, I think you're a knowledgeable professional.
When you files a complaint & request a refund, the basic is provide us your evidence. And we can't accept 4-5 words that you quote from your jeweler as your evidence. You, as an academia, you will not accept verbal proof from your student without any written reference or proof, right?

Second, honestly, I am suspect you're just emotionally not satisfy with our diamond instead of the chemcial composition doesn't match the true lab diamond since you are the first guy who ask for return & refund.

Third, as you're hestiated to provide us your jeweler professional proof, the existence of this jeweler is also highly in doubt. Okay, even I believe you that jeweler is exist, I would hope that this is not a strategy for you to get so-called professional verbal advise WITHOUT WRITTEN EVIDENCE to ask for return & refund.

I would hope that this is not a strategy to avoid the actual diamond assessment because of the cost to the customer of such a test. I think this is your issue as a business person.

Professor, I think you should take some time to study the diamond industry. I have never make use of our customer to avoid the LAB diamond assessment cost since every customer is satisfy with our product & there's NO ONE ask for return & refund.

I will check with Ebay on the procedures for returns for not receiving what was expected.

Apart from check with ebay, to be fair to both of us, please make a copy of our email conversation. Ebay will provide us a platform for dispute resolution WHICH IS BASED ON EVIDENCE & PROOF.

Just send me the correct stone.

All of our diamond come from same Russian Diamond Company. If it's come out that we sell you a wrong stuff, I will refund you that total amount.

Do you check the stones before you send them out? Do you ever see the diamonds.

The diamond is sent out via Hong Kong Post. Can't you see those Hong Kong stamps?

I think the return address on the package was from the USA.

That's the address of Postal Transhippment Office.

What diamond marketing association are you referring to Hong Kong, USA or some where else?

Hong Kong


Morris to Tse

David Morris to Louis
More options Jan 14 (1 day ago)

January 14,2006
Order 50671000079
Diamond 7mm Russian Lab

Dear Ka Chun Tse:

Thanks for your e-mail back to me. You do not know me nor I you.

I cannot agree with your assessment that I did not emotionally like the stone. I was actually thinking of you.

If this is an accident and I was sent the wrong material I would not wish to take any action accept change it for a diamond as represented by you on E-Bay.

As a professor of marketing I would expect a business person to want to incur minimum risk to check to see if a supplier had made an error.
Especially if they were getting back the original stone.

I would think that if there is a problem as I have identified that the seller would want to rectify this before it impacted other customers.

As an academic I do accept all students at their word because I do not want to damage anyone by suggesting otherwise. I also believe that people act according to the expectations that they are given. In 20 years I have never suggested to any student that what they were saying was not truthful. Even if I believed they were not telling the truth to me. I always choose the positive path.

I do not hesitate to provide proof. I was thinking of you. I believe there are more ways than chemical composition to evaluate a diamond. I was surprised that the assessment you suggested was limited to this alone. I was also surprised that you would want me to provide proof.

I discuss the diamond industry with all students as the best example in the world of marketing. The cost to mine and polished a top quality 1 ct stone is less than 5 dollars. This stone can then be sold for up to 1000% mark up. If a seller were to pay one dollar for a cz diamond and sell it for $130. This would be 13,000% mark up.

The suggestion that no one has ever asked for a refund may have nothing to do with what they have received. It is possible that for 130 dollars most people would accept the loss.

I would be happy to send the stone to E-Bay's fraud department and I will incur the cost of assessment. Would you agree to reimburse me for the cost of a complete diamond assessment if the assessment comes back that the stone is not a real diamond equivalent?

I also know a common response when a stone is found not to be as represented is that the seller suggests the buyer switched the stones to get the money from them or they switched it to get two stones.

The only way for a buyer to overcome this objection would be to have an agency such as E-Bay buy another stone from the seller on E-Bay or some other outlet and have it directly sent to a diamond assessment authority approved by a State or Federal agency.

Even at that point the seller does not have to refund the money or replace the stone unless the buyer can show evidence that this
enterprise is also in the USA and they use a foreign address is to
avoid American and Hong Kong law. Of course in the case of E-Bay the have some recourse.

There are times in life where it is better to take a person at their
word and try to make it right.

All the best to you,
David Morris

Yes I will save the correspondence and share it with others as you requested.


Tse to Morris

Louis Tse - CUNY to me
More options Jan 14 (1 day ago)

Dear Professor,

I am not well-educated but I have doing business in various area for over 15 years. I don't know your theory. I don't know those strategies you mentioned or you suspect.

I am simple guy and do business in fast & honest way. So far my
feeling is you are not satisfied to me instead of our product. I am very disappointed that you talk so much but you haven't do anything actively to resolve this dispute. I hate just talking but do nothing.

Here's my proactive suggestion FOR YOU to solve the problem. PLEASE, PLEASE (I repeat it this because I hope you will actually do so instead of argue with me furthermore.) report your case to Ebay "Dispute Resolution" platform.

After you report your problem, ebay will become our mediator for this case. Ebay can have the authority to deduce the transaction amount from my Paypal account Once it's proof that I make the mistake. I think ebay will be a fair agent to resolve this case. As long as your present the evidence or testing certificate for ebay's professional approval (no need to send me a copy as you suspect I make use of you to save the assessment cost). I accept Ebay instru

 
On 1/14/06, Louis Tse - CUNY wrote:
Hello, Professor,

It's very funny & interesting that you let me become your case studies for your student. Fantastic! Anyway, What I wish is please let your student know the truth, no amendment & full version of the case.

And I would like to emphasis one more that I will not take any excuse and provide you replacement stone only. Full refund is ready once you provide proof to ebay & get their professional approval.

Louis KC Tse

Morris to Tse

David Morris wrote:
Hello Louis:

Of course it will be accurate.

That is how people learn.

When this transaction is done I will send the case to you and you can comment.

I will add what you say.

I am sorry to keep this going.

What do you mean not take any excuse?

And then what do you mean provide with replacement stone only?

Then you say you will send a full refund?

Again if you can send me the stone as represented I would be happy.

David Morris

Tse to Morris

Louis Tse - CUNY to me
More options Jan 14 (1 day ago)

Hello Professor,

As I am not well-educated & my English is not very good.
What I am saying is:

I will not replace the stone with another stone because all stone is come from same Russian Diamond Company. If it's proved that 1 stone have problem, all of them will be returned to the company.
And I will provide full refund to you.

And I'm still believe that I've sent you the stone as represented.

At this moment, I will wait for the ebay mediator.

Louis KC Tse

I called E-bay to discuss this case with them. I was told I could add to my information that they would use to make a decision. So I added the above e-mail exchanges. E-Bay said that I would be contacted to have a professional assessment of the stone that they would review. My jeweler did 2 test and said that the stone was misrepresented. As you can see the seller asked for a chemical test. My jeweler never hear of such a test. He also said to have a chemical test that he thought that some of the stone would have to be removed. I told E-bay about this.
Students

The Following E-mail is from E-Bay.
Please note that the seller put down a return the merchandise address below that will not work. It took me another 3 hours to go and try to send it back by UPS and get rejected and to then try to find the correct person at EBay to contact with this information.

This case has taken me so far more than 40 hours for $130. It is worth it to me to show you what a person will have to go through to get a problem solved when there is a determination by the seller to stop the process.

My next guess is as I said to the seller in an above e-mail that when EBay gets his correct address and I send back the stone that he is going to say it is not the one he sent me.

I will keep you informed.

Dear David Morris,

We are in the process of investigating the following claim:

Transaction Date: Dec 29, 2005
Transaction Amount: -$130.00 USD
Your Transaction ID: 6NP467049W666871N
Seller's Transaction ID: 0C0313269V736380E
Case Number: PP-134-488-985
Seller's Name: Ka Chun Tse
Seller's Email: econtse@yahoo.com

We have determined that you may be eligible for a refund on this PayPal
transaction. To qualify for a refund, just return the item in its original
condition to the seller. (You are responsible for shipping and handling
costs for the returned merchandise.) The amount you will be eligible to
receive is determined by the terms of our buyer protection policies and we
may be unable to make a full recovery of your payment from the seller.
Please review the buyer protection policies in our User Agreement
(https://www.paypal.com/ua) before shipping the item back to the seller.

The seller has provided the following shipping address:

KLH, SKE, TM, NT
HK
HK
000001
Hong Kong

Please log in and provide tracking information for the item you are
returning within 10 calendar days. The seller will also receive the
tracking information for this item. When the shipment is verified by
PayPal, the refund will be issued to you. If you do not provide this
information to PayPal, the investigation will end and the claim will be
cancelled.

https://www.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_complaint-view-details&cid=PP-134-488-985
with the seller to resolve this issue.

Thank you for your cooperation.

Sincerely,

Protection Services Department


I contacted E-Bay after I tried to send to the Address give to return the product by the seller was found to be bogus. E-Bay said they would contact the seller and get the correct address.

March 1, 2006
I called E-Bay back because I heard nothing from them that they were contacting the seller. I wanted to make sure that this was actually on their records. They said yes and the seller had a certain number of days to respond. I did not want the time frame to go by and the seller to not have to return the money.

March 19, 2006
Called E-Bay and they said that they took $105.00 out of the 130.00 owed out of the sellers account. The seller still made money on this transaction. I do not think he would have believed that I would have gotten any money at all back. We will see what E-Bay does with such a seller.

Dear David Morris,

We have concluded our investigation into the following claim:

Transaction Date: Dec 29, 2005
Transaction Amount: -$130.00 USD
Your Transaction ID: 6NP467049W666871N
Seller's Transaction ID: 0C0313269V736380E
Case Number: PP-134-488-985
Seller's Name: Ka Chun Tse
Seller's Email:


Delivery of the returned item has been confirmed and a refund will be
issued. You are guaranteed a refund up to $200.00 USD. Any amount you are
owed over $200.00 USD is not guaranteed, but will be refunded if we are
able to recover it from the seller.

Thank you for your cooperation.

Sincerely,
Protection Services Department

Please do not reply to this email. This mailbox is not monitored and you
will not receive a response. For assistance, log in to your PayPal account
and click the Help link located in the top right corner of any page. If
your inquiry is regarding a claim, log in to your PayPal account and go to
the Resolution Center.

PayPal Email ID PP627

Dear David Morris,

We have completed our investigation into the claim detailed below.

We've reviewed the evidence in this case and decided in your favor. As a
result, we have recovered funds from the seller, and $105.00 USD has been
credited to your PayPal account. This is the maximum amount covered by
PayPal Buyer Protection.

If your claim was for more than the amount covered by PayPal Buyer
Protection, you are entitled to be paid the balance of the claim by the
seller. We will make our best effort to recover the balance from the seller.

Please be assured that we will take appropriate action against the seller
if the seller's account has insufficient funds to complete the refund owed
to you.

Marketing Application IMBALANCED

The diamond business run by De Beers is one of the most powerful businesses in the world. It has been an absolute monopoly until the last several years. Now I would call it a shared monopoly. I read a great book Glitter and Greed by Janine Roberts 2003 that I believe to be an entire course in the reality of marketing. I recommended this book for anyone interested in business. You will be a great deal smarter at the end of the book than you are now.

The seller asks the buyer to verify that the stone is as represented. I suspect that a chemical test is unusual and not easy to have done. This puts it on the customer to believe that they are wrong. For 130.00 almost all will not pursue it and take the loss. So far this has taken me more than 15 hours of time. If a seller can do this 10 times a week they can make 1000.00 or 52,000 a year.
I should be able to get my money back because of E-Bay PayPal. I will let you know.

March 2, 2006 The seller is a great strategist and very adept at getting buyers to end their attempt to get back the money. Sending of the wrong address to return the item to E-Bay is another strategy to get the buyer to stop. I know that the next strategy will be to say I did not return the same product to the seller. E-Bay wants a trackable package to be sent back to the seller. From an experience I had in Egypt the seller can refuse to take delivery of the package. They then can say it was never received. E-Bay is probably aware of this trick.